Actions

Organ Grinder and Bounty Hunter: Difference between pages

From Blood on the Clocktower Wiki

(Difference between pages)
 
 
Line 6: Line 6:
<div id='character-details'>
<div id='character-details'>


[[File:icon_organgrinder.png|250px]]
[[File:icon_bountyhunter.png|250px]]
<span style="display: block; color: black; font-size: 20px; text-align: center; margin-top: 10px;">Information</span>
<span style="display: block; color: black; font-size: 20px; text-align: center; margin-top: 10px;">Information</span>


Line 12: Line 12:
<tr>
<tr>
<td>Type</td>
<td>Type</td>
<td>[[Character Types#Minion|Minion]]</td>
<td>[[Character Types#Townsfolk|Townsfolk]]</td>
</tr>
</tr>
<tr>
<tr>
<td>Artist</td>
<td>Artist</td>
<td>Chloe McDougall</td>
<td>Marianna Carr</td>
</tr>
</tr>
<tr>
<tr>
<td>Revealed</td>
<td>Revealed</td>
<td>23/03/2023</td>
<td>04/07/2020</td>
</tr>
</tr>
</table>
</table>


<p class='flavour'>"Round and round the handles go. The more you dance the less you know."</p>
<p class='flavour'>"Alone, I walk these streets, paved with the sick stench of corruption. Its thickness worms its way into my nostrils, unbidden, burning with revulsion. And anticipation. The illness of this wretched place grows each night. And I... I am the cure."</p>
 
<span style="display: block; color: black; font-size: 20px; text-align: center; margin-top: 20px;">Character Showcase</span>
<youtube>Ku_V4l1cICo</youtube>


</div>
</div>
Line 37: Line 34:
</span>
</span>
<table style="width: 90%; margin: 0 auto;">
<table style="width: 90%; margin: 0 auto;">
{{Jinx|Butler|butler|Good|If the Organ Grinder is causing eyes closed voting, the Butler may raise their hand to vote but their vote is only counted if their master voted too.}}
{{Jinx|Kazali|kazali|Evil|An evil Townsfolk is only created if the Bounty Hunter is still in play after the Kazali acts.}}
{{Jinx|Lil' Monsta|lilmonsta|Evil|Votes for the Organ Grinder count if the Organ Grinder is babysitting Lil' Monsta.}}
{{Jinx|Philosopher|philosopher|Good|If the Philosopher gains the Bounty Hunter ability, a Townsfolk might turn evil.}}
{{Jinx|Minstrel|minstrel|Good|If the Minstrel makes everyone drunk, the Organ Grinder keeps their ability but the Minstrel keeps their eyes open when voting.}}
{{Jinx|Preacher|preacher|Good|If the Preacher removes the Organ Grinder ability, the Organ Grinder keeps their ability but the Preacher keeps their eyes open when voting.}}
</table>
</table>


Line 53: Line 48:
<div class="small-12 large-6 columns">
<div class="small-12 large-6 columns">
== Summary ==
== Summary ==
"All players keep their eyes closed when voting & the vote tally is secret. Each night, choose if you are drunk or not."
"You start knowing 1 evil player. If the player you know dies, you learn another evil player tonight. [1 Townsfolk is evil]"


The Organ Grinder makes voting secret.
The Bounty Hunter tracks down evil players, one at a time.
* When a player is nominated, players vote with eyes closed.
* The Bounty Hunter starts knowing one evil player. When that player dies, they learn another evil player.
* The Storyteller does not count the votes out loud, and does not reveal how many players voted once voting is complete.
* The Bounty Hunter only learns the evil player, not their character.
* The Storyteller does not reveal which player is “about to die”.
* If the Bounty Hunter is drunk or poisoned when they should learn a new player, the Storyteller may show them a good player. When the recently shown player dies, the Bounty Hunter learns a new player that night.
* After nominations have closed, the Storyteller reveals which player is executed, as normal.
* The Bounty Hunter cannot learn the same evil player twice.
* Dead players may vote once if they have a vote token. Their vote token is removed at the end of the day instead of after the vote.
* If the Bounty Hunter is in the game at setup, one Townsfolk is evil. The Bounty Hunter may learn the evil Townsfolk.
</div>
</div>


Line 67: Line 62:
== How to Run ==
== How to Run ==


When a player is nominated, ask all players to close their eyes. If they ask why, tell them that an Organ Grinder is in play. When counting votes, do so silently. Afterwards, do not reveal how many players voted, nor if the nominee is “about to die”. If there were enough votes to execute the nominee, mark them with the '''ABOUT TO DIE''' reminder. Ask players to open their eyes, and if there are any more nominations.
During setup, turn one Townsfolk character token upside down, to represent that they are evil. Mark one evil player with the '''KNOW''' reminder.


If the Organ Grinder is nominated, follow the above process, but do not place or move the '''ABOUT TO DIE''' reminder if the Organ Grinder didn’t vote.
During the first night, wake the Bounty Hunter. Point to the player marked '''KNOW'''. Put the Bounty Hunter to sleep.


When nominations are closed, declare that the player marked '''ABOUT TO DIE''', '''dies'''.
Each time the player marked '''KNOW''' dies, mark a new evil player with the '''KNOW''' reminder. That night, wake the Bounty Hunter, point to the player marked '''KNOW''', then put the Bounty Hunter to sleep.
 
<div class="example" style="color: #5d2123; font-style: italic; font-family: GoudyOldStyle;">
Players are not allowed to use other methods to determine who is voting, such as touch or sound. It is a secret.
</div>
</div>
</div>


Line 87: Line 78:


<div class='example'>
<div class='example'>
There are 8 players alive. The {{Good|Noble}} is nominated. All players close eyes to vote and the {{Good|Noble}} gets 5 votes. The {{Evil|Imp}} is nominated. All players close eyes to vote and the Imp gets 7 votes. The {{Good|Pixie}} is nominated. All players close eyes to vote and the {{Good|Pixie}} gets 4 votes. After nominations close, the Storyteller declares that Doug (the {{Evil|Imp}}) is executed and dies, and that good has won.
On the first night, the Bounty Hunter learns that Edd is evil. Edd is the {{Good|King}} who has been turned evil by the Bounty Hunter. The next day, the {{Good|King}} dies. The following night, the Bounty Hunter learns that Abdallah is evil. Abdallah is the {{Evil|Goblin}}.  
</div>
</div>


<div class='example'>
<div class='example'>
There are 5 players alive. 2 players have 3 votes each. The Organ Grinder has 4 votes, but did not vote for themselves. There is no execution today, because the vote was tied.
On the first night, the Bounty Hunter learns that Evin is evil. Three days later, Evin dies. That night, the Bounty Hunter learns Marianna is evil. Marianna is a Minion. Three nights later, the Demon kills Marianna and the Bounty Hunter learns that Alex is evil. Alex is the Demon. The {{Good|Tea Lady}}, who was made evil by the Bounty Hunter, is still alive.  
</div>
</div>


Line 103: Line 94:
== Tips & Tricks ==
== Tips & Tricks ==


* Flex your execution immortality. Try to make yourself suspicious, but not overly so, so that you get enough votes to be executed on a few different days, but survive due to your ability. If you’re too suspicious, though, it might out that you’re the Organ Grinder. If absolutely everyone else is claiming to have voted for you but you’re not dead, that’s probably going to convince people that you’re the Organ Grinder and they probably won’t try to execute you again or target you with abilities, and therefore will put more effort into finding your Demon. If, instead, you can be just suspicious enough to get some votes, you might be “executed” several times, wasting plenty of the good team’s time…
* This is pretty simple, right? You know who an evil player is, right off the bat on day 1! Not even the {{Good|Investigator}} info is this strong! You should tell everyone about it immediately and get that filthy scoundrel of an evil player executed as soon as possible so you can get more information on other dastardly fiends around town and work your way closer to finding out who the Demon is!
 
* Try to orchestrate the same situation for your Demon! Try to get almost enough votes on them, then have the entire evil team claim to have voted for them too, to make them look like they might be the Organ Grinder and therefore a waste of time to try to execute.
 
* Consider carefully if you ever want to get yourself executed. Bearing in mind that when you die, it’s likely you’ll be outed as the Organ Grinder because votes will suddenly become open, you need to have a good reason to vote for yourself for execution. Maybe you think your Demon might be executed instead if you don’t get enough votes yourself? Maybe your Demon is the one leading the charge against you and getting executed at their behest will convince town that they’re most likely good?
 
* Consider when you’re going to claim to have voted - you can’t afford to claim too wildly about when you’ve voted and when you haven’t, as the good team will work out that something is awry when the votes claimed don’t line up with actual executions. It’s often best to only lie about who you’ve voted for at crux moments so you can hide among the masses.


* Don’t feel the need to vote for people you don’t want executed in order to blend in. No-one knows who you’re voting for, so you never need to vote for an evil player in the entire game if you don’t want to!
* You know who an evil player is, but they don’t know you know… Maybe this is a time to sit back in the shadows and pay attention to who they talk to, whether they seem to start without a bluff and then get one after a certain conversation, or maybe they just seem entirely lost and not sure who to talk to. This can tell you who the other evil players are in the first case and that it’s probably the evil Townsfolk in the latter case. Either way, now you have a better idea of who else might be evil and if you now get them executed and see one of the only other people they spoke to on the first day, this is just more evidence that shows your information is correct!


* Try to create situations where there are lots of nominations in a day. The good team will struggle to try and keep track of all the votes that happen and which ones they did and didn't vote on which will give Evil players to bluff being confused as well.
* Once you’re public as a Bounty Hunter, you’re a target for the Demon to kill, so choose your moment to make your information public with great care. Come out too early and you can just be killed before you get the full extent of your potential information. Come out too late and you won’t be able to convince enough people to execute your target in order to get more information. The game can literally swing based on how much information you get, if you manage to work your way through executing the whole evil team to find out who the Demon is, but that requires you both controlling a lot of executions and surviving to that point, so public knowledge about you has to be timed just right!


* Lie with abandon about when you’ve voted! No-one can know for sure who’s the one lying among the group, you’re only one vote among several that had to vote a given way for anyone to be executed, so you can just say whatever you like about voting to suit your agenda.
* Remember you’ve created an evil Townsfolk in this game! Not only is this an extra evil player with an extra nomination and an extra vote, but also they have a free bluff in the character token they actually received if they want it. Even worse, however, they have an incentive to lie about their information, so this is yet another source of misinformation that you will have to be wary of. It’s also worth remembering that there’s an extra evil player if the game goes to a final three – you’ll need an extra good vote on the Demon in order for the evil team not to be able to rise up and beat your numbers just with evil votes!


* Remember that you don’t know who’s been voted for and put on the block either. Be wary of any nomination of your Demon as you can never know if there was actually a groundswell of support for their execution that you hadn’t expected and they might now be on the block.
* Maybe this is a moment to go up to the evil player you saw and try to convince them you’re evil too! If they’re the evil Townsfolk created by your own ability, they won’t know who the other evil players are and will possibly just trust you if you “out” as evil to them. If they’re a Minion, however, you might be putting them on their guard that they’ve been seen by a Bounty Hunter and they might be able to tell the Demon to kill you, so use this tactic with caution!


* Coordinate votes with your evil team - while you don’t have a majority in votes, the good team not being able to coordinate as easily means that uniting together behind certain nominations might allow you to swing executions in your favour, especially if your whole team is alive in the mid-game.
* If you are staying concealed, you still need to get your targets executed. So you’ll want to be either getting someone else to claim your information for you or claiming your information privately to get people on board with executing your targets – you’ll need plenty of votes, especially if you’ve seen a Minion that the evil team won’t want to be voting on.


* Be wary of endgame. If the game goes to a final three and the good team are pretty certain that you are the Organ Grinder, then they’ve got a 50/50 between the other two living players as to which is the Demon. Do your best to continue to obfuscate that fact in the endgame - you very much need to still be a viable Demon candidate in final three or your chances aren’t great! This might be a good reason to vote for yourself on the penultimate day - yes your ability goes out of play, but it’s an execution on someone who isn’t your Demon and it leaves three Demon candidates on the final day, not just two.
* Your information is, unfortunately, very fragile when poisoned – you will almost always learn a good player rather than an evil one and you may not want to get that player executed… If you think you’ve been spotted by an evil team and are just going to be poisoned consistently because you absolutely trust your latest target, maybe this is a time to accept that you’re not going to get any more good information and accept death if people don’t trust you… Or maybe you can discuss with that player and see if they’re willing to die to get you another bit of info that might not be poisoned this time. Or you can turn your attentions to hunting down that pesky {{Evil|Poisoner}} or {{Evil|Widow}} that’s messing with your info and hope the Demon kills your current target at night to get you some juicy new info!


* Control the narrative. Try to organize the entire town to execute people you think would be good to execute. The good team’s only hope of executing is by working together as they can't see who is voting for what, so try to get them voting on the same page as you.
* Pay attention to what evil characters are on the script – you don’t want to lead the town on a crusade to execute your target only to find out that they were a {{Evil|Goblin}} or {{Evil|Boomdandy}} that’s just won the game for the evil team!
 
* Promise dead players you will vote with them and then don't do so. Any ghost votes that get used and wasted early or mid-game on anyone that's not the Demon are a success for you.
</div>
</div>


Line 133: Line 116:


<div class="small-12 large-12 columns" style="padding-right: 0;">
<div class="small-12 large-12 columns" style="padding-right: 0;">
== Bluffing as the Bounty Hunter ==


== Fighting the Organ Grinder ==
When bluffing as the Bounty Hunter, there are a few things you should keep in mind:
 
* Discuss your nominations before making them. It is more likely for a vote to go through if all good players fully understand the accusation and logic before the nomination is made and other players might be able to contribute information towards a nomination that you can try to rally people behind.
 
* Make your intent to vote clear early! It’s a natural instinct in Clocktower to want to watch the other votes as they go round in order to inform your own, so you may not speak up earlier to not lock yourself into voting one way or the other. In an Organ Grinder game, though, you can’t see the votes and you want to coordinate, so it’s worth letting people know you intend to vote so they know it’s potentially worth voting with you.
 
* Conversely, make your intent not to vote clear as well! If you think you probably got enough votes on someone who feels like the best execution for the day, publicly announce you won’t be voting for anyone else as you think that person is the best choice. Encourage others to consider the same position - after all when you don’t know the results of a vote, fewer nominations means fewer chances to accidentally tie…


* Pay attention to which players say they are voting on executions that seem to get beaten or fail. Evil will be saying they’re voting on things that they aren’t and not voting on things that they are.
* Bluffing as the Bounty Hunter is a long game. You’ll need a detailed story of which players you discover as being evil across the course of the game. It can be wise to wait silently in the shadows, watching the game so that you can get your story straight. Remember, you’ll be needing to remember a sequence of players who you learn of as being evil and that will need to tally with any information coming from players you're claiming must be good by elimination.  


* Try to work out who the Organ Grinder is. If you have means to block the Organ Grinder on the good team, whether through the {{Good|Courtier}}, {{Good|Sailor}}, {{Good|Innkeeper}} or others, try to use them to narrow down Organ Grinder candidates.
* Coming out as a Bounty Hunter throws a lot of shade on other players. You can get key players killed and undermine trust between players. Watch out for alignment detecting characters like {{Good|Empath}} or {{Good|Cult Leader}} as they can discover that you’re lying.


* If you’re not sure who the Organ Grinder is and you’ve got a day or two to spare when you’re not sure who to nominate, nominate your suspicions and try to rally players around getting a lot of votes to see if they die. If not, they’re probably the Organ Grinder that just blocked their own execution by not voting.
* Be mindful that when you’re claiming to be the Bounty Hunter, you will be accusing one or more good players of being evil. The more players you accusing of being evil, the more players you’re turning into enemies. However, if you manage to pull this off just right, this can be a great way to split the game by possibly dividing the good players into two camps. Alternatively, this can be a great way to pull focus off the Demon if they’re under suspicion.


* If you’re reasonably confident who the Organ Grinder is, maybe don’t bother nominating them. That’s one player that’s definitely not the Demon and having them go to the final 3 gives you a 50/50 choice between the other two!
* Create a clique with good players, because you will need a small bloc of allies to execute the people you set up as evil with your fake information. Go around on the first day and pick one or two good players you want to form an alliance with, and drip feed them your information. Even if you get discovered, you're likely to have gotten one or two good players executed anyway and then get executed yourself, all of which are executions that aren't going on your Demon.


* Save your ghost vote for the final day, so you know it's making an impact. Amongst other things, Organ Grinders often want to die before the final day if they've been outed, so it's quite possible if you hold your ghost vote to the final day you might get to use it with your eyes open. Even if you don't get to keep your eyes open, it is still the day with your best odds of getting the Demon successfully.
* If you come out publicly, be prepared to be executed or get the Demon to kill you, as a public Bounty Hunter surviving into the late game is incredibly suspicious. Bounty Hunters are high priority targets for the Demon because if they're left alive long enough they will eventually learn who the Demon is. So if you think your Minion ability is of limited value any more, get the Demon to kill you as soon as you "come out publicly" to build trust in your claims when you die at night.


* If there’s a player voting erratically, you can set them up as the evil Townsfolk since an evil Townsfolk created by the Bounty Hunter doesn’t know who the evil players are and would likely be voting that way. It can be a great way to isolate a seemingly trustworthy player whose character has been verified, because they will have started as that Townsfolk, but then turned evil by you. It's a great way to undermine provable characters like the {{Good|Virgin}}, or {{Good|Slayer}} too.
</div>
</div>


Line 159: Line 138:


[[Category:Experimental Characters]]
[[Category:Experimental Characters]]
[[Category:Minions]]
[[Category:Townsfolk]]

Revision as of 08:00, 12 June 2025

Icon bountyhunter.png Information

Type Townsfolk
Artist Marianna Carr
Revealed 04/07/2020

"Alone, I walk these streets, paved with the sick stench of corruption. Its thickness worms its way into my nostrils, unbidden, burning with revulsion. And anticipation. The illness of this wretched place grows each night. And I... I am the cure."

Related Jinxes (Open)

Icon kazali.png

Kazali

An evil Townsfolk is only created if the Bounty Hunter is still in play after the Kazali acts.

Icon philosopher.png

Philosopher

If the Philosopher gains the Bounty Hunter ability, a Townsfolk might turn evil.

Summary

"You start knowing 1 evil player. If the player you know dies, you learn another evil player tonight. [1 Townsfolk is evil]"

The Bounty Hunter tracks down evil players, one at a time.

  • The Bounty Hunter starts knowing one evil player. When that player dies, they learn another evil player.
  • The Bounty Hunter only learns the evil player, not their character.
  • If the Bounty Hunter is drunk or poisoned when they should learn a new player, the Storyteller may show them a good player. When the recently shown player dies, the Bounty Hunter learns a new player that night.
  • The Bounty Hunter cannot learn the same evil player twice.
  • If the Bounty Hunter is in the game at setup, one Townsfolk is evil. The Bounty Hunter may learn the evil Townsfolk.

How to Run

During setup, turn one Townsfolk character token upside down, to represent that they are evil. Mark one evil player with the KNOW reminder.

During the first night, wake the Bounty Hunter. Point to the player marked KNOW. Put the Bounty Hunter to sleep.

Each time the player marked KNOW dies, mark a new evil player with the KNOW reminder. That night, wake the Bounty Hunter, point to the player marked KNOW, then put the Bounty Hunter to sleep.

Examples

On the first night, the Bounty Hunter learns that Edd is evil. Edd is the King who has been turned evil by the Bounty Hunter. The next day, the King dies. The following night, the Bounty Hunter learns that Abdallah is evil. Abdallah is the Goblin.

On the first night, the Bounty Hunter learns that Evin is evil. Three days later, Evin dies. That night, the Bounty Hunter learns Marianna is evil. Marianna is a Minion. Three nights later, the Demon kills Marianna and the Bounty Hunter learns that Alex is evil. Alex is the Demon. The Tea Lady, who was made evil by the Bounty Hunter, is still alive.

Tips & Tricks

  • This is pretty simple, right? You know who an evil player is, right off the bat on day 1! Not even the Investigator info is this strong! You should tell everyone about it immediately and get that filthy scoundrel of an evil player executed as soon as possible so you can get more information on other dastardly fiends around town and work your way closer to finding out who the Demon is!
  • You know who an evil player is, but they don’t know you know… Maybe this is a time to sit back in the shadows and pay attention to who they talk to, whether they seem to start without a bluff and then get one after a certain conversation, or maybe they just seem entirely lost and not sure who to talk to. This can tell you who the other evil players are in the first case and that it’s probably the evil Townsfolk in the latter case. Either way, now you have a better idea of who else might be evil and if you now get them executed and see one of the only other people they spoke to on the first day, this is just more evidence that shows your information is correct!
  • Once you’re public as a Bounty Hunter, you’re a target for the Demon to kill, so choose your moment to make your information public with great care. Come out too early and you can just be killed before you get the full extent of your potential information. Come out too late and you won’t be able to convince enough people to execute your target in order to get more information. The game can literally swing based on how much information you get, if you manage to work your way through executing the whole evil team to find out who the Demon is, but that requires you both controlling a lot of executions and surviving to that point, so public knowledge about you has to be timed just right!
  • Remember you’ve created an evil Townsfolk in this game! Not only is this an extra evil player with an extra nomination and an extra vote, but also they have a free bluff in the character token they actually received if they want it. Even worse, however, they have an incentive to lie about their information, so this is yet another source of misinformation that you will have to be wary of. It’s also worth remembering that there’s an extra evil player if the game goes to a final three – you’ll need an extra good vote on the Demon in order for the evil team not to be able to rise up and beat your numbers just with evil votes!
  • Maybe this is a moment to go up to the evil player you saw and try to convince them you’re evil too! If they’re the evil Townsfolk created by your own ability, they won’t know who the other evil players are and will possibly just trust you if you “out” as evil to them. If they’re a Minion, however, you might be putting them on their guard that they’ve been seen by a Bounty Hunter and they might be able to tell the Demon to kill you, so use this tactic with caution!
  • If you are staying concealed, you still need to get your targets executed. So you’ll want to be either getting someone else to claim your information for you or claiming your information privately to get people on board with executing your targets – you’ll need plenty of votes, especially if you’ve seen a Minion that the evil team won’t want to be voting on.
  • Your information is, unfortunately, very fragile when poisoned – you will almost always learn a good player rather than an evil one and you may not want to get that player executed… If you think you’ve been spotted by an evil team and are just going to be poisoned consistently because you absolutely trust your latest target, maybe this is a time to accept that you’re not going to get any more good information and accept death if people don’t trust you… Or maybe you can discuss with that player and see if they’re willing to die to get you another bit of info that might not be poisoned this time. Or you can turn your attentions to hunting down that pesky Poisoner or Widow that’s messing with your info and hope the Demon kills your current target at night to get you some juicy new info!
  • Pay attention to what evil characters are on the script – you don’t want to lead the town on a crusade to execute your target only to find out that they were a Goblin or Boomdandy that’s just won the game for the evil team!

Bluffing as the Bounty Hunter

When bluffing as the Bounty Hunter, there are a few things you should keep in mind:

  • Bluffing as the Bounty Hunter is a long game. You’ll need a detailed story of which players you discover as being evil across the course of the game. It can be wise to wait silently in the shadows, watching the game so that you can get your story straight. Remember, you’ll be needing to remember a sequence of players who you learn of as being evil and that will need to tally with any information coming from players you're claiming must be good by elimination.
  • Coming out as a Bounty Hunter throws a lot of shade on other players. You can get key players killed and undermine trust between players. Watch out for alignment detecting characters like Empath or Cult Leader as they can discover that you’re lying.
  • Be mindful that when you’re claiming to be the Bounty Hunter, you will be accusing one or more good players of being evil. The more players you accusing of being evil, the more players you’re turning into enemies. However, if you manage to pull this off just right, this can be a great way to split the game by possibly dividing the good players into two camps. Alternatively, this can be a great way to pull focus off the Demon if they’re under suspicion.
  • Create a clique with good players, because you will need a small bloc of allies to execute the people you set up as evil with your fake information. Go around on the first day and pick one or two good players you want to form an alliance with, and drip feed them your information. Even if you get discovered, you're likely to have gotten one or two good players executed anyway and then get executed yourself, all of which are executions that aren't going on your Demon.
  • If you come out publicly, be prepared to be executed or get the Demon to kill you, as a public Bounty Hunter surviving into the late game is incredibly suspicious. Bounty Hunters are high priority targets for the Demon because if they're left alive long enough they will eventually learn who the Demon is. So if you think your Minion ability is of limited value any more, get the Demon to kill you as soon as you "come out publicly" to build trust in your claims when you die at night.
  • If there’s a player voting erratically, you can set them up as the evil Townsfolk since an evil Townsfolk created by the Bounty Hunter doesn’t know who the evil players are and would likely be voting that way. It can be a great way to isolate a seemingly trustworthy player whose character has been verified, because they will have started as that Townsfolk, but then turned evil by you. It's a great way to undermine provable characters like the Virgin, or Slayer too.